Face Off pt 2 - Gunter Pauli & Ian Dunlop
Here’s a rhetorical question for you – does all the carbon tax propaganda create as much hot air as the emissions themselves?
To help clear things up, the Amplify Face Off has pitched Ian Dunlop and Gunter Pauli a series of swerveball questions, perfect to get you in the mood for their forthcoming Amplify speeches.
THE CARBON TAX IS AN IMPORTANT STEP ON THE PATH TO REDUCING GLOBAL INDUSTRIAL EMISSIONS , AGREE OR DISAGREE?
Gunter: Taxing - increasing costs should never be the sole strategy to correct the market. And if you do it, then every one has to do this, including the Americans and the Chinese. So instead of ONLY talking about cap and trade, tax and account, it is much more critical to push for innovations and creative solutions that make the best cheap and the necessary free.
Ian: Agree but, first, it is not a "Great Big New Tax", but the removal of a "Much Bigger Old Subsidy", the objective being to put a price on carbon pollution. We do not countenance sewage slopping around the streets; we quite rightly expect organisations to incorporate the cost of avoiding it into their operations, for which they are not compensated. It is part of creating a civilised society. Likewise we can no longer allow excess carbon to slosh around the atmosphere if we wish to preserve that society.
Second, a carbon price is not the silver bullet to "fix" global warming; it is but one pellet amongst the myriad silver buckshot we will need. We require sweeping change to the entire economic and social system, encompassing market, regulatory and societal norms. In particular we should be far more focused on the innovative opportunities ahead rather than desperately trying to preserve our current unsustainable model.
WHAT’S ONE THING THAT WE COULD ALL DO TODAY TO MAKE FOR A GREENER PLANET TOMORROW
Gunter: Why a greener planet tomorrow? We have to get into action today. And never believe that one thing can ever get us there, we need many "things". So rather than a specific action like switch off lights when not needed, and become a vegetarian, I would rather suggest an attitude to life - "think out of the box", "make connections you never saw before" and "respond to all your basic needs with what you have", that would make a huge difference.
Ian: The challenge of achieving global sustainability is far greater than is being acknowledged by our nominal political and corporate leaders. Honesty is long overdue, both about the size of that challenge and the urgency of the solution - it is time for emergency action!. But our nominal leaders are not real leaders, they will only follow what they perceive the community is demanding, and even then reluctantly if it cuts across short-term self interest. It is clear from the current parliamentary debate that the existing political system is incapable of delivering the change we need - the vested interests intent on maintaining the status quo are too strong.
The most critical issue for us all today is to get involved constructively with this debate and not leave it to the "Establishment". We must demand honesty, rapid action and become personally committed to deliver it. Real leadership will come from the bottom up, to give our nominal leaders the courage and conviction to take the action required.
As Alexandre Ledru-Rollin put it: “There go the people – I must follow them, for I am their leader”.
IS THE ENERGY INDUSTRY GENUINELY INTERESTED IN FINDING VIABLE ALTERNATIVE ENERGY SOURCES?
Gunter: Industry will never be - and cannot be - genuinely interested in renewable energies that are more expensive. And vested interests should never be expected to nurture new technologies which are not part of their core competences. It is like asking the fox to protect the chicks, it simply will not work. In order to get real innovations in renewable energies onto the market, it is necessary to change the rules of the game, and make certain that you have many Davids who can take on the Goliaths.
Ian: No - the manner in which our governance system has evolved over the last two decades has guaranteed that this is impossible, due in particular to the dominance of short-termism, brought about by so-called "pay-for-performance", and the omission of "externalities" from our economic equation. We have lost the ability to think and plan long-term. Directors have a fiduciary responsibility to act honestly, in good faith and to the best of their ability in the interests of their company in perpetuity – but the last two words have been conveniently forgotten in recent years as business worships at the altar of short-term incentives.
Real change will only occur when the true long-term costs of operations are incorporated economically, so that new technologies can compete on a level playing field. That is not the case at present, hence the importance of putting a price on carbon; but a realistic price is far greater than the minimalist figures being floated politically.
DO YOU THINK THAT ENVIRONMENTAL AWARENESS AND BUSINESS SUCCESS WILL GO HAND IN HAND OVER THE NEXT 50 YEARS?
Gunter: The environmental awareness today is unfortunately "doing less bad", we reduce the negative, we protect the living. That kind of greeny approach to business will never lead to business success. However, breakthrough innovations that shift the way we do business, that will be associated with business success, leapfrogging forward instead of simply improving on the fringes. If I can convert all coffee waste on farms or in coffee shops to a substrate for shiitake mushrooms - and the waste substrate after harvesting the mushrooms is used as a feed for animals - then I produce more protein for human consumption with what I have. Over a decade ago Nestle told me - we are not in the mushroom business - today we have +10,000 people working in this. We have more food, of better quality, at lower price. That kind of new approach will always work.
Ian: "Awareness" is the wrong term - real action and commitment is what is needed. Unfortunately we have created a political and capitalist system which has proved incapable, thus far, of recognising that the most important factor for its own survival is the preservation of a biosphere fit for human habitation. That is about to change as extreme weather events and resource scarcity escalate.
Business success will require genuine sustainability as a core value, not as an optional extra as at present. Much good work is being done in Australian business, but most of it is at the hygiene level. Sustainability has to be taken rapidly to an entirely different plane - for example, how do we resolve the inherent contradiction between our expressed concern to address global warming and the rapid expansion of the coal and gas industries with no credible means of sequestering the carbon.
Unless we act to remove such inconsistencies, our survival is not guaranteed. The solutions are available, but we need to re-define the system, and success, to ensure they are implemented. Innovation will then render the status quo obsolete.
IF THERE WAS A REFERENDUM ON THE CARBON TAX TOMORROW, HOW WOULD YOU VOTE?
Gunter: Of course if my intellect and action as a citizen is limited to ONE self-imposing tax then I will be against. If it is part of a comprehensive package - including innovation and changing rules of the game - I could consider.
Ian: A referendum on an issue such as a Carbon Tax would represent an abject failure of leadership by the political and corporate elites of Australia. But that does seem to be where we are heading.
If it really did come to a vote, my response would depend on the question. If it honestly articulated the challenge, and a carbon price was one component of a comprehensive solution, it would have my vote. If it continued obfuscation and dishonesty about the challenge, with parameters in line with current political debate, it would not.
Any major reform, once implemented, will take at least a decade to change, a decade we no longer have. So we had better get it right first time. We only play this game once; a trial run is not an option.
“Don’t Blow It – Good Planets are Hard to Find” - Time
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